AHA musings - drugs and more drugs and more on FIELD
So we keep talking about how cardiology is becoming so much more focused on endocrinology and diabetes ... welllll, that's sort of true, but we believe it's a bit less apt than we had thought, based on a wild search about drugs on the exhibit floor, where we lived the following:
BMS/MERCK:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Pargluva here?"
Medical Rep (irritated): "Absolutely not!"
LILLY:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Byetta?"
Rep (confused): "By-what?"
Kelly: "Byetta."
Rep (mystified): "By-ate-a?"
Kelly (incredulous): "Yes, Byetta! You know your amazing new drug, the GLP-1?"
Rep (sad): "I don't know about it." (Turning to another rep ... "Do you know about - what is it called? - Byetta?"
Second rep (enthusiastic): "Oh yes! That's doing great! But we don't have it here. That's not our division."
Kelly (questioning): "But aren't cardiologists moving into diabetes? Don't you have a big diabetes division? How can you not have Byetta here?"
First Rep: "Yeah! How can we not have Byetta here? Here, can you fill out this comment card and we'll get you some info .... let me swipe your badge!"
Overweight doctor from Cornell, joining the conversation: "How about Symlin!"
First Rep: "Sim-lin? What's Sim-lin?"
Second Rep: "Sim-lin? What's Sim-lin?"
GLAXO-SMITH-KLEIN:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Avandia here?"
Rep (on it): "YES! Please go see this film and then I'll answer all your questions! This is a very important area for us."
There is a film, starting Della Reese and some of her friends with names like Fred and Millie. This is sort of well done, not on the Sanofi scale (see below), but they have a new little song "Get Rosi on board..." It has a nice ring to it and I might find myself singing it to Coco if I'm not careful. The whole film is brilliant at giving data that isn't WRONG exactly, but also isn't footnoted, and if it were, wouldn't be sourced from, say, a NEJM published study. There are statements from the narrator like "In another study, there was an A1C drop of 1.5%, in patients with A1Cs of 9% or higher. Then in another study, there was an A1C drop of 3%, where the baseline was 11.5% - dropouts were high, but it's much better to go on Avandia than up-titrate Metformin! 50% of patients got to goal! Yes, adding Avandia works on core defects - lowering insulin resistance and improving beta cell function ... "
After the film (which was packed for all three times I watched it), the reps came back, offered coffee commuter cups (with red "get Rosie on board" labels), and $30 coupons for a program called "I Can.." (see www.avandia.com - they are taking the DTC pretty seriously.) To top it off, they gave away Hershey's kisses. I took 10 and ate them on the spot, shooting up Symlin as I went .. "What's that?" the rep asked ...
Maybe it's just me, but it really seems like in a little bit here, we're going to start hearing a LOT about TZDs and prevention of diabetes. They are just gearing up...
ABBOTT: I went here before FIELD was announced (see previous post). They were happy and nice and told me FIELD slides would be up November 17 at www.lipidforum.com. They then offered some excellent espresso and biscotti. I asked them about mixing fenofibrate with a glycemic lowering compound and doing a combo drug ... "are you nuts?!" the rep asked. Score one for Abbott on that basis alone ... we talked about how combo drugs are overrated, how dosing is complex, how if the drug works it is fantastic, but if it doesn't, the doc gets a million calls ... I went by after and dejection abounded. I know it's not as positive as it would've been had it been a positive study, but I think either way, it's got to be good add-on therapy, no?
PFIZER:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about inhaled insulin?"
Rep: "Go talk to the medical director - we're just reps."
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about inhaled insulin?"
Medical director: "No, we're not really saying much about that."
Kelly: "Do you think it'll be approved soon?"
Medical rep: "Let me show you some data on Lipitor ..."
TAKEDA:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Actos?"
Rep: "Why, yes! What can we tell you?"
Kelly: "Is it being used as first-line therapy?"
Rep: "Yes! And for pre-diabetes!"
Kelly: "Really? I hadn't realized that trial had come out yet. What did those results show!?!"
Rep: "Well, the trials aren't completed yet. We do not encourage use for pre-diabetes. But it is being used for that."
Kelly: "The ADA '03 DPP data was really powerful with Troglitazone, showing a 70% reduced progression to diabetes ... compared to much lower for Metformin and lifestyle ..."
Rep: "Yes, and you should see the follow up gestational data ..."
Kelly: "How's the edema and CHF?"
Rep: "Well, patients need to be chosen and followed appropriately ...they are seeing a lot fewer problems like that in pre-diabetes .. they are the younger, relatively healthier patients, of course ... now this drug is great in combo with Metformin ...."
Ironically, the Lilly reps _were_ at the Actos booth, since they co-market it for a bit longer ...
ASTRAZENECA:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Galida here?"
Rep: "No."
Kelly: "Nothing you can say about this dual PPAR?"
Rep: "We haven't been talking about dual PPARs much lately ..."
Kelly: "Because of the FD ..."
Rep (interrupting): "Yes. But check out our LDL/HDL ratio with Crestor .... "
The conversation then turned to another discussion of how combination therapy isn't as easy as it looks (dosing, mixes, etc.), which I buy, and then to personalized medicine, and the rep explained there was some kind of research ongoing to figure out which type of patient would actually benefit particularly from diet and exercise, etc - they felt more personalized medicine would revolutionalize lipids. I explained that I thought lipids had been revolutionalized ...."$26 billion category and all..." This rep felt some PCPs were seeing as many as 50-60 patients a day "a factory .. and would you want to be dealing with nausea phone calls....?"
SANOFI:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Acomplia here?"
Rep (super nice): "Absolutely! See the booth over there? There's an excellent movie there about endocannabanoid systems. I can't even say it yet! But we're learning! Go ahead and watch it ... then let me know any questions you have! We'd love to help in any way possible."
Kelly: "ohhhh - I'll go watch it! When will Acomplia be approved?"
Rep (super nice): "April 2006 is what they're telling us! Go watch the movie, it's in 3-D, and fantastic! It doesn't have the word Acomplia in it, but it'll teach you a lot..."
Kelly: "OK thanks! oh and one other thing, how's Lantus doing?"
Rep: "Fantastic. We love selling this drug - it really changes people's lives."
Kelly: "Mm.. how do you think Levemir will do?"
Rep: "Oh please! Levemir is a glorified NPH!!!"
So I made my way over to the movie, "Exploring the ECS," which WAS in fast, fantastic. These guys don't skip a beat. Sanofi really knows how to market - even at 9 am, there were scads of people lined up grabbing at the 3-D glasses. The film (I can't believe I'm calling it that) was quite educational, and used lots of phrases like "appears to play a role" "seems to be linked" "apparently meaningful" etc. It reminds me of Wall Street days. Hedging is an excellent sport.
But, again, this was very well done ... it reviewed how a "newly discovered" physiologic system, the ECS (endocannabinoid system) plays a key role (see?) in glucose metabolism, lipid metabolism, and insulin resistance. CB1 receptors are found through the body - say, GI tract, brain, adipose tissue and skeletal muscle, for example, and they affect many processes. In the liver, CB1 activity is apparently associated with development of adiposity, dyslipidemia, and insulin resistance - all bad. In the brain, central CB1 activation influences feeding behavior and energy balance. This means satiety ... I really respect now anything that plays on satiety. I used to think it was sort of made up, but boy does Symlin work on satiety - almost sneakily, like I don't really notice it, but then I do ("wow I've eaten half my bacon cheeseburger and I'm not that hungry suddenly..."). I respect satiety, so it'll be interesting to see if that works with this drug.
Then, in adipose tissue, it is said, CB1 activation "appears to stimulate" lipogenesis and to inhibit adiponectin expression. What does adiponectin expression mean? Wellll, so as I understand it, adipose tissue used to be viewed as inert, but now it's seen as an active organ. Low adiponectin levels are commonly found in diabetics and those that are obese. Got it ... that's all we need to know, right ... CB1 activation is bad and adiponectin is good and there isn't enough adiponectin going on ... so we should be wary at the very least of adiponectin inhibition. Low levels of adiponectin, I then learned, are associated with high free fatty acids (FFA), low HDL, high triglycerides, and AND insulin resistance. In skeletal muscle, CB1 activity is associated GI motility and safety signalling. I have to check this out with all my smart connections in pharma, but this gives you an idea how the story is forming ...
I started remembering right about then how excited I got about this drug at ADA - doesn't it seem like, IF safety is established (the CNS questions are big) and for those that can get over side effects, that this should be mixed with Byetta? Byetta has all the glucose pieces that this doesn't have plus Byetta doesn't have insulin resistance and this doesn't have beta cell regeneration ... could be a mix, no? (We know Byetta doesn't necessarily have beta cell preservation or regeneration either - that is yet to be proven. We also are excited about Byetta with TZDs, which seems also complimentary - insulin resistance, potential beta cell regeneration from both, weight loss from Byetta offsetting weight gain from TZDs, potentially lower edema/CHF from combo due to lower dose TZD, etc.)
BMS/MERCK (second lap):
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about Pargluva here?"
Rep: "Pargluva? We don't have a drug called Pargluva."
NOVARTIS:
Kelly: "Hi, are you giving any information about LAF-237 here?"
Rep (cold): "No."
Kelly: "Hmm. How about Vildagliptin?"
Rep: "No, we're not talking about that one either."
Kelly: "Anything in diabetes?"
Rep: "No. This is a cardiology meeting!"
And on that note ....
* * *
So with FIELD, we're a little confused. We made a big deal about the tertiary benefits of reduced microvascular complications, but we realize we do not really understand what prompted the improvement - why would PPAR alpha cause better complications data? And it really was QUITE good complications data! These outcomes seem like they must've been very unexpected. Had they been delivered at a diabetes meeting, perhaps more would've been made of them - as I'm thinking about it now, for any type 2 patient (which these all were, recall, all 10,000 of them!), why wouldn't you give them Tricor as an add-on? I completely see how you wouldn't give Tricor instead of a statin (not sure if you would've seen that even with a positive trial) - but why wouldn't you give it to patients - it's safe, can probably lower microvascular complications, and if it's early in the disease state (earlier, more aggressive therapy - here's that them again) there's a decent chance that it might help reduce events.